Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

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Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

ebisumartin
Banshee delelopers, Clementine developers, developers of audio
software for Ubuntu in general,

I'm just putting this out there, and cross posting to both lists. This
is just an open letter, a description of how these applications feel
to a user, just in hopes that maybe someone will find some perspective
in it, and maybe, just maybe, baseline stability can be seen as higher
importance than feature development.

It seems to me that I always see on list requests for new features and
development of new features, but the fact is that the base programs
don't work reliably well. Banshee is up past version 2, Clementine is
past version one, and yet neither are rock solid in their basic
features.

I'm not expecting any major solutions, but where else can I express
what is basically just sadness that after 7 or 8 years, Ubuntu still
doesn't have a music application that is as reliable as maybe as many
as a dozen, or more, options for other operating systems.

It seems as though these projects are hampered by what is a common
issue in open source, which is that it is fun and exciting to work on
new algorithms to make new types of clever playlists, or to develop
support for a new music file format or playlist, but it's boring as
watching paint dry to debug and spend time hunting down some bug in
basic functionality. So features increase while stability improves by
only minor increments.

Maybe this is just a fact of life with open source. Don't get me
wrong, I believe in open source and think some great things have been
done. The fact remains though, that there's a certain haphaazard
quality to the progress. Some types of programs come together really
well and make amazing advances, some flounder without any sensible
development, and most are in the middle, making some progress but can
be frustrating in that certain faults seem to never get addressed.
Audio and music software on Ubuntu seems to fall into the lower end of
this middle ground. I can play a lot of music enough that I can get by
and enjoy my music collection, but there are demerits which never go
away so that I couldn't say I'm content.

Anyway, that's just my .02$. I hope some day there will be some kind
of audio software on Ubuntu that will do everything that Banshee and
Clementine claim to do, but also do those things without caveats and
errors.

- - -

Just for reference, below is a list of the pros and cons that prevent
me from committing to either Banshee or Clementine. All of them relate
to features that exist, but they just aren't reliable, or one exists
in one application but not the other. In other words, I'm not hoping
for some esoteric feature, I just would like what's available to work,
and work in one place

I like Banshee because:
It reasonably reliable (though not 100%) for transferring music and
playlists to my Android (which is my main portable MP3)
The interface for sorting playlists and rating songs is workable.
There is a decent remote app for my Android phone so I can control it
over the LAN.

I don't like Banshee because:
It does not reliably load streaming internet audio. (Some links do not
work, some take several tries to load)
No crossfading
It does not come with sets of pre-bookmarked internet radio streams

I like Clementine because:
Cross fading
Pre installed radio stream bookmarks
Radio streams always connect (though not perfectly, see below)

I don't like Clementine because:
Interface is buggy (sometimes I click on one playlist, and all are
selected, doesn't always keep last playlist when closing and opening
again, songs don't always appear in playlist, etc...)
While there is a remote app, it really doesn't work very well at all
When connecting to a radio stream for the first time, it stops and
starts about 5 times before finally playing through (buffering
problem?)
lack of plug ins or extensibility (alarm, sleep, and other functions)

--
Dave M G
_______________________________________________
banshee-list mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/banshee-list  (unsubscribe here)
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Re: Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

olivier dufour
Hi,

Just want to answer to some of your cons on banshee. I remove clementine list because do not want to spam them...

1) It does not reliably load streaming internet audio. (Some links do not
work, some take several tries to load)
we use gstreamer as backend. So it is maybe the backend issue.
Anyway, feel free to open a bug on bugzilla with detail.

2) No crossfading
We think that best is to have it done by gstreamer on playbin2.
I have open a bug for that long time ago.
Else we can do a backend with crossfade support but it is not on top priority.

3) It does not come with sets of pre-bookmarked internet radio streams 
We have a list that distribution can set up. So complain to your distribution.

Anyway to help everybody, you can work on gstreamer which is the heart of many players.

Olivier Dufour


On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:06 AM, Martin G <[hidden email]> wrote:
Banshee delelopers, Clementine developers, developers of audio
software for Ubuntu in general,

I'm just putting this out there, and cross posting to both lists. This
is just an open letter, a description of how these applications feel
to a user, just in hopes that maybe someone will find some perspective
in it, and maybe, just maybe, baseline stability can be seen as higher
importance than feature development.

It seems to me that I always see on list requests for new features and
development of new features, but the fact is that the base programs
don't work reliably well. Banshee is up past version 2, Clementine is
past version one, and yet neither are rock solid in their basic
features.

I'm not expecting any major solutions, but where else can I express
what is basically just sadness that after 7 or 8 years, Ubuntu still
doesn't have a music application that is as reliable as maybe as many
as a dozen, or more, options for other operating systems.

It seems as though these projects are hampered by what is a common
issue in open source, which is that it is fun and exciting to work on
new algorithms to make new types of clever playlists, or to develop
support for a new music file format or playlist, but it's boring as
watching paint dry to debug and spend time hunting down some bug in
basic functionality. So features increase while stability improves by
only minor increments.

Maybe this is just a fact of life with open source. Don't get me
wrong, I believe in open source and think some great things have been
done. The fact remains though, that there's a certain haphaazard
quality to the progress. Some types of programs come together really
well and make amazing advances, some flounder without any sensible
development, and most are in the middle, making some progress but can
be frustrating in that certain faults seem to never get addressed.
Audio and music software on Ubuntu seems to fall into the lower end of
this middle ground. I can play a lot of music enough that I can get by
and enjoy my music collection, but there are demerits which never go
away so that I couldn't say I'm content.

Anyway, that's just my .02$. I hope some day there will be some kind
of audio software on Ubuntu that will do everything that Banshee and
Clementine claim to do, but also do those things without caveats and
errors.

- - -

Just for reference, below is a list of the pros and cons that prevent
me from committing to either Banshee or Clementine. All of them relate
to features that exist, but they just aren't reliable, or one exists
in one application but not the other. In other words, I'm not hoping
for some esoteric feature, I just would like what's available to work,
and work in one place

I like Banshee because:
It reasonably reliable (though not 100%) for transferring music and
playlists to my Android (which is my main portable MP3)
The interface for sorting playlists and rating songs is workable.
There is a decent remote app for my Android phone so I can control it
over the LAN.

I don't like Banshee because:
It does not reliably load streaming internet audio. (Some links do not
work, some take several tries to load)
No crossfading
It does not come with sets of pre-bookmarked internet radio streams

I like Clementine because:
Cross fading
Pre installed radio stream bookmarks
Radio streams always connect (though not perfectly, see below)

I don't like Clementine because:
Interface is buggy (sometimes I click on one playlist, and all are
selected, doesn't always keep last playlist when closing and opening
again, songs don't always appear in playlist, etc...)
While there is a remote app, it really doesn't work very well at all
When connecting to a radio stream for the first time, it stops and
starts about 5 times before finally playing through (buffering
problem?)
lack of plug ins or extensibility (alarm, sleep, and other functions)

--
Dave M G
_______________________________________________
banshee-list mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/banshee-list  (unsubscribe here)


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Re: [clementine-player] Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

Arnaud BIENNER
In reply to this post by ebisumartin
Hi,

Thanks for your email, it's always appreciated to have users feedback.

Let me (quickly) answer you, about Clementine.

About stability, we do our best but we also want new features to be available.
But IMO most critical bugs are always fixed quickly.

Also, keep in mind that we are all developers working on this project on our spare time.
Moreover, we are not a big team (currently 3 active developers (6 in the palmy days) + people sending us patches occasionally).

But, as it's an open source project, I encourage you to have a look to the code and try to provide solution for the problems you're talking about.
The code isn't so hard to understand I believe, and we are accessible (on IRC, on mailing list, ...) if you have questions or want to submit a patch.

Just one thing about the remote control: it is a unstable feature, and it is not available by default.
I know that some distributions enable it, but I believe it's a quite bad idea as we marked it explicitly unstable, and that (as you figured out) it doesn't work so well atm.

If you want to have deeper discussion about particular issues, I invite to visit our bugtracker (http://code.google.com/p/clementine-player/issues/list) as it is a better place to discuss this kind of thing.

Arnaud


2012/3/16 Martin G <[hidden email]>
Banshee delelopers, Clementine developers, developers of audio
software for Ubuntu in general,

I'm just putting this out there, and cross posting to both lists. This
is just an open letter, a description of how these applications feel
to a user, just in hopes that maybe someone will find some perspective
in it, and maybe, just maybe, baseline stability can be seen as higher
importance than feature development.

It seems to me that I always see on list requests for new features and
development of new features, but the fact is that the base programs
don't work reliably well. Banshee is up past version 2, Clementine is
past version one, and yet neither are rock solid in their basic
features.

I'm not expecting any major solutions, but where else can I express
what is basically just sadness that after 7 or 8 years, Ubuntu still
doesn't have a music application that is as reliable as maybe as many
as a dozen, or more, options for other operating systems.

It seems as though these projects are hampered by what is a common
issue in open source, which is that it is fun and exciting to work on
new algorithms to make new types of clever playlists, or to develop
support for a new music file format or playlist, but it's boring as
watching paint dry to debug and spend time hunting down some bug in
basic functionality. So features increase while stability improves by
only minor increments.

Maybe this is just a fact of life with open source. Don't get me
wrong, I believe in open source and think some great things have been
done. The fact remains though, that there's a certain haphaazard
quality to the progress. Some types of programs come together really
well and make amazing advances, some flounder without any sensible
development, and most are in the middle, making some progress but can
be frustrating in that certain faults seem to never get addressed.
Audio and music software on Ubuntu seems to fall into the lower end of
this middle ground. I can play a lot of music enough that I can get by
and enjoy my music collection, but there are demerits which never go
away so that I couldn't say I'm content.

Anyway, that's just my .02$. I hope some day there will be some kind
of audio software on Ubuntu that will do everything that Banshee and
Clementine claim to do, but also do those things without caveats and
errors.

- - -

Just for reference, below is a list of the pros and cons that prevent
me from committing to either Banshee or Clementine. All of them relate
to features that exist, but they just aren't reliable, or one exists
in one application but not the other. In other words, I'm not hoping
for some esoteric feature, I just would like what's available to work,
and work in one place

I like Banshee because:
It reasonably reliable (though not 100%) for transferring music and
playlists to my Android (which is my main portable MP3)
The interface for sorting playlists and rating songs is workable.
There is a decent remote app for my Android phone so I can control it
over the LAN.

I don't like Banshee because:
It does not reliably load streaming internet audio. (Some links do not
work, some take several tries to load)
No crossfading
It does not come with sets of pre-bookmarked internet radio streams

I like Clementine because:
Cross fading
Pre installed radio stream bookmarks
Radio streams always connect (though not perfectly, see below)

I don't like Clementine because:
Interface is buggy (sometimes I click on one playlist, and all are
selected, doesn't always keep last playlist when closing and opening
again, songs don't always appear in playlist, etc...)
While there is a remote app, it really doesn't work very well at all
When connecting to a radio stream for the first time, it stops and
starts about 5 times before finally playing through (buffering
problem?)
lack of plug ins or extensibility (alarm, sleep, and other functions)

--
Dave M G


_______________________________________________
banshee-list mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/banshee-list  (unsubscribe here)
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Re: Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

Bertrand Lorentz
Administrator
In reply to this post by ebisumartin
Thank you for your feedback, my comments below

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:06 AM, Martin G <[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip]
> It seems as though these projects are hampered by what is a common
> issue in open source, which is that it is fun and exciting to work on
> new algorithms to make new types of clever playlists, or to develop
> support for a new music file format or playlist, but it's boring as
> watching paint dry to debug and spend time hunting down some bug in
> basic functionality. So features increase while stability improves by
> only minor increments.

I disagree, hunting down a bug can be quite interesting while tracking
the issue down and rewarding when you manage to fix it.
But for this to be the case, several conditions have to be fulfilled:
- You need to know that the problem exists
(http://banshee.fm/contribute/file-bugs/)
- You need to be able to reproduce it consistently and reliably.
- The fix has to be in some part you can actually fix

Then there's also a cost/benefit factor : it might not be the best use
of a developer's time to spend tens of hours tracking down a bug that
only affects a tiny fraction of the users or only happens under rare
conditions.

But in a way you're right: if someone writes a patch adding a new
feature that doesn't introduce visible regressions, it would be
counter-productive for the project to reject it and say "go fix some
bugs instead"...

[snip]
> Just for reference, below is a list of the pros and cons that prevent
> me from committing to either Banshee or Clementine. All of them relate
> to features that exist, but they just aren't reliable, or one exists
> in one application but not the other. In other words, I'm not hoping
> for some esoteric feature, I just would like what's available to work,
> and work in one place

I hope you see and understand the inconsistency of your position: if a
feature exists in application A but not in application B, adding it to
application B is still a new feature and can cause instability,
regressions, etc...

> I like Banshee because:
> It reasonably reliable (though not 100%) for transferring music and
> playlists to my Android (which is my main portable MP3)
> The interface for sorting playlists and rating songs is workable.
> There is a decent remote app for my Android phone so I can control it
> over the LAN.
>
> I don't like Banshee because:
> It does not reliably load streaming internet audio. (Some links do not
> work, some take several tries to load)

This is a tricky set of issues, because of all the elements in play :
streaming server issues, network connection, codecs available on the
client, media engine on the client, etc...

> No crossfading
> It does not come with sets of pre-bookmarked internet radio streams

Those two are interesting examples of the cost/benefit factor: we
could implement them ourselves, but it might not be a good idea in the
long term.

We could do our own custom implementation of crossfading, but it would
be significant amount of work, outside of the area of expertise for
most of us. And all that work would become obsolete when GStreamer
implements crossfading itself.

We used to have our own list of internet radios, but I think it was
difficult to maintain and update it. I don't think it's our job to
select radio stations :)
See this bug for some more details, and how distributions can provide
default radio stations :
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=548197


--
Bertrand Lorentz
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Mac
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Re: Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

Mac
As a user of both of these apps, I can say I have not had the
experience of the OP.

I have not seen the instability issues.

I have had issues getting Banshee to compile in AVLinux.

The search capabilities in Banshee are superior to Clementine.

I use use Clementine primarily at the moment because it works with
Jack. (Though, even here I've ended up using alsa/jack bridge because
of the particular project I'm currently working on)

I also like the look and feel of Clementine.

Overall, both are far more desirable than anything I've seen in the MS
or Apple universe.

But, this is MHO and YMMV.

Regards,
Mac
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Re: Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

Chow Loong Jin-2
In reply to this post by olivier dufour
On 16/03/2012 15:15, olivier dufour wrote:
>
> 1) It does not reliably load streaming internet audio. (Some links do not
> work, some take several tries to load)
> we use gstreamer as backend. So it is maybe the backend issue.
> Anyway, feel free to open a bug on bugzilla with detail.

Weirdly enough, I've never experienced issues streaming in totem what I could
not stream in Banshee. I don't have the streams with me right now, but I
probably should have filed a bug, yes.

> [...]
> 3) It does not come with sets of pre-bookmarked internet radio streams
> We have a list that distribution can set up. So complain to your distribution.

I've tried implementing this in the packaging for Ubuntu and Debian, but it went
to hell as I (as far as I could recall) needed to use one xspf playlist per
genre (unlike Rhythmbox which manages to put everything into a single xspf
playlist), and various other issues I can't remember. I should probably dig out
my branch for this and try again.

The optimal solution would be to have a common format that both Rhythmbox and
Banshee (and potentially other players) can use. Currently, both use xspf for
specifying the default radio stations, but have really different ways of
representing the genre.

For the record, Rhythmbox's xspf playlist can be found here:
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/rhythmbox/precise/view/head:/plugins/iradio/iradio-initial.xspf

--
Kind regards,
Loong Jin


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Re: Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

jamesqf
In reply to this post by ebisumartin
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:06:48 -0700, Martin G <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm not expecting any major solutions, but where else can I express
> what is basically just sadness that after 7 or 8 years, Ubuntu still
> doesn't have a music application that is as reliable as maybe as many
> as a dozen, or more, options for other operating systems.

Just a thought here, but why should Banshee, or any other application,
be exclusively for Ubuntu, or FTM exclsively for KDE/Gnome?  I don't
use Ubuntu, and it's unlikely that I ever will. Likewise, I don't use
KDE or Gnome (which at least has the GTK libs so I can run their apps
apart from their desktop),  By restricting development to particular
platforms, aren't you drastically limiting the pool of potential
developers?


> I don't like Banshee because:
> It does not reliably load streaming internet audio. (Some links do not
> work, some take several tries to load)
> No crossfading
> It does not come with sets of pre-bookmarked internet radio streams

Whereas I can't imagine any circumstance in which I'd want to access
an internet radio stream.  We all scratch where we itch :-)

James
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Re: Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

Chow Loong Jin-2
On 17/03/2012 02:59, James wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:06:48 -0700, Martin G <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm not expecting any major solutions, but where else can I express
>> what is basically just sadness that after 7 or 8 years, Ubuntu still
>> doesn't have a music application that is as reliable as maybe as many
>> as a dozen, or more, options for other operating systems.
>
> Just a thought here, but why should Banshee, or any other application,
> be exclusively for Ubuntu, or FTM exclsively for KDE/Gnome?  I don't
> use Ubuntu, and it's unlikely that I ever will. Likewise, I don't use
> KDE or Gnome (which at least has the GTK libs so I can run their apps
> apart from their desktop),  By restricting development to particular
> platforms, aren't you drastically limiting the pool of potential
> developers?
Are you sure you're not misreading this? In no case did I see development
restricted to any particular platform. From that quote, I see that Martin G.
uses Ubuntu, and as such restricts his comments to Ubuntu. I see nothing wrong
with that.

>> I don't like Banshee because:
>> It does not reliably load streaming internet audio. (Some links do not
>> work, some take several tries to load)
>> No crossfading
>> It does not come with sets of pre-bookmarked internet radio streams
>
> Whereas I can't imagine any circumstance in which I'd want to access
> an internet radio stream.  We all scratch where we itch :-)

Banshee does not tailor itself only for your use-case. There are many other
users who listen to internet radio streams, and Banshee should cater for them as
well.

--
Kind regards,
Loong Jin


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Re: Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

olivier dufour
In reply to this post by Chow Loong Jin-2
Hi,

On internet radio playlist, all is explain here : http://banshee.fm/download/archives/2-2-0/
For the genre, you can open a bug (if it do not ever exist). The patch is pretty small to add genre extention in track.

Olivier Dufour


On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Chow Loong Jin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16/03/2012 15:15, olivier dufour wrote:
>
> 1) It does not reliably load streaming internet audio. (Some links do not
> work, some take several tries to load)
> we use gstreamer as backend. So it is maybe the backend issue.
> Anyway, feel free to open a bug on bugzilla with detail.

Weirdly enough, I've never experienced issues streaming in totem what I could
not stream in Banshee. I don't have the streams with me right now, but I
probably should have filed a bug, yes.

> [...]
> 3) It does not come with sets of pre-bookmarked internet radio streams
> We have a list that distribution can set up. So complain to your distribution.

I've tried implementing this in the packaging for Ubuntu and Debian, but it went
to hell as I (as far as I could recall) needed to use one xspf playlist per
genre (unlike Rhythmbox which manages to put everything into a single xspf
playlist), and various other issues I can't remember. I should probably dig out
my branch for this and try again.

The optimal solution would be to have a common format that both Rhythmbox and
Banshee (and potentially other players) can use. Currently, both use xspf for
specifying the default radio stations, but have really different ways of
representing the genre.

For the record, Rhythmbox's xspf playlist can be found here:
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/rhythmbox/precise/view/head:/plugins/iradio/iradio-initial.xspf

--
Kind regards,
Loong Jin


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http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/banshee-list  (unsubscribe here)


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Re: Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

Chow Loong Jin-2
In reply to this post by Bertrand Lorentz
On 16/03/2012 18:28, Bertrand Lorentz wrote:
> We used to have our own list of internet radios, but I think it was
> difficult to maintain and update it. I don't think it's our job to
> select radio stations :)
> See this bug for some more details, and how distributions can provide
> default radio stations :
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=548197

For the record, Rhythmbox still maintains the list of radio stations upstream.
What difficulties did we face in the past for maintaining a list upstream?

--
Kind regards,
Loong Jin


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Re: Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

seb0815
On a different note but in relation to various players I would love to
see that rantings/play counts are independent of the player and can be
read/used by any player.
That would require them to be saved in the meta tag of each file. Not
sure if this is the default case on all players.

Regards,
Sebastian

On 18 March 2012 00:22, Chow Loong Jin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 16/03/2012 18:28, Bertrand Lorentz wrote:
>> We used to have our own list of internet radios, but I think it was
>> difficult to maintain and update it. I don't think it's our job to
>> select radio stations :)
>> See this bug for some more details, and how distributions can provide
>> default radio stations :
>> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=548197
>
> For the record, Rhythmbox still maintains the list of radio stations upstream.
> What difficulties did we face in the past for maintaining a list upstream?
>
> --
> Kind regards,
> Loong Jin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/banshee-list  (unsubscribe here)
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Re: Banshee versus Clementine versus any other audio software

ebisumartin
Thank you everyone for the considered responses. I certainly did not
want to ignite any heated debate, and I'm glad non has started.

Point taken to the person who pointed out that I was wrong in saying
that bug fixing isn't necessarily boring. And other worthy statements
were duly noted.

The problem is that when there's agreement, there isn't much to say ;)

So, just to respond to a few of the critiques of my initial standpoint:


1. Some people responded saying "I've never had these problems, and I
love Banshee/Clementine." That is great, but I don't think it really
means much. Here's why:

Any software, any at all, will have a bell curve of user experience.
On one end will be people for whom it works perfectly, because they
either don't use features which might trigger bugs, or their
environment is perfectly suited to the application, or whatever. On
the other end are people for whom it breaks frequently. And rounding
out the top of the curve are the people who have a mix of good and bad
impressions.

The people for whom the application works great will be happy and
request new features. The people who are unhappy will generally leave
(particularly those who are only trying Linux out while their main
computer is another OS). So bugs that existed for some people will not
get addressed, while features will continue to be requested, and in
the process the user base narrows to those for whom it happens to work
for.

I would hope, however, that the goal is to expand the user base, and
that means addressing the concerns of those for whom it does not go
smoothly.

Personally, the only reason I don't just give up on either of these
two applications comes down to one problem: all the other options on
Ubuntu share the same problem, so going from one software to another
is generally just picking and choosing which issues to live with. I'm
too stubborn to give up totally and use my Windows or my Mac.

Which is a backhanded way of saying I think these two are the best two
available, which is good, and well done to the developers for getting
them this far. But that's only in comparison to the rest of the
offerings on Linux. Compared to what is offered on Windows or Apple, I
think they are nowhere near as feature-stable as they could be. Dare I
even say, should be.


2. Some people pointed out developers are part time, so development is
inevitably hampered. Yes, and I totally appreciate that. I have also
helped on open source projects and I'm aware that it is often
thankless work. However, while the programmers should be praised for
their efforts, we can at the same time evaluate the results. I would
say that it's simply an unfortunate reality that open source projects
that are run entirely by developers working spare time will have
erratic and unstable development, and the software as a result will be
a mix of some great features and some buggy features. That is the
essence of my lament. I'm not criticising anyone's efforts, I'm just
reporting on how the results feel on the other end, and trying to be
as objective as possible.


3. Some people said that I should file bug reports. I have, both in
the past and specifically on the ones I mentioned, and also others
have filed bug reports. Here's one bug I mentioned, where someone else
filed it originally and then I contributed:

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=662909

If this bug were fixed, I would probably abandon Clementine. But it's
about five months old now and I don't know what a reasonable fix time
should be, but, again, since I sympathise with the fact that the
developers are part time, I don't have any expectation that it should
be fixed at all. From the point of view of sympathising with
developers, it's understandable it will take a while. From the point
of view of my using the software, though, it still means I have a
mediocre experience.


4. One of the most interesting critiques of my standpoint was that I
was being hypocritical by comparing and constrasting the two software
packages, Clementine and Banshee. Saying that application A should
have the features of application B is akin to saying that B should
have new features, which is contrary to saying that the focus should
be on stability.

Okay, I'll concede the point that I was being unclear, and that some
of the features would be considered new on one or the other
application.

However, I still think there is some merit in the notion that it seems
that both applications share common goals and offer common features,
but it's not possible to get all of that goodness in one place. Both
have streaming internet and both have remote controls, but streaming
internet only works well on one and the remote control works well on
the other. From a user point of view, it seems like there is a pool of
features available across these and other applications, but it's
frustrating they can't just be relied upon in just one application.

Specific features could be argued as new, but since some features
present in both don't work in both, it makes it hard to choose either
based on feature differences alone. If both applications did what they
advertised perfectly, then I'd simply choose one and make a feature
request for the things I felt was missing from the one I selected.


Again, thanks for considering my point of view. I do hope that both of
these applications will become more stable and reliable as time goes
on.

Thank you to all the developers, your efforts are appreciated.

--
Dave M G
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